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Transcript of this talk: Deconstructing Empathy
M: Hi Dash.
R: Hi Rishi.
M: Over the past many years I have trying to make sense about this world a little bit. For example, the real, the physical, the metaphysical and all the other alms of it. So, I do this by asking questions, by running experiments, by building and by writing books. Something about which I am extremely curious recently, is the work empathy and how their embodiment of it would actually look like. The first time when I came across the word empathy was name years ago when I was a part of a workshop and we were using empathy as a concept or a tool to understand the users for whom we were actually building. As it happened, for example when you come across a new word in the dictionary it starts showing up everywhere. So, that was what happening with Empathy and it started showing up everywhere. But when I looked at it objectively, I realized that Empathy has even become a buzz work. Now, Dash you as a couch works with individuals and as you are someone who observes the society why do you think Empathy is such a buzz word today?
R: Thanks Rishi, I myself have been tricked by the work for a while and I started studying it with a lot of focus intended towards it. Moreover, I discovered something really interesting that the word is a kind of a very new word in the scheme of things. It was not so coincidentally was born around the time around the time when mass production and industrialization was born. Actually, the word came into being in 1909 Or 1910 and it has grown important as the industry leaders have grown. Actually, it sorts of mimics what I would call dehumanization of society with the industrialization. As we have industrialised ourselves in some ways we have been searching for our own answer, purposes, meanings, words like Empathy have shown up. Moreover, there have been a drumbeat around these works lately and Empathy is a part of that journey that humanity has taken to find the human self in this largely dehumanized world in some place. For example, if you look at schools, work places and if you look at society in large countries is majored only by GDP. In all this we have really seen a sort of Machinification of us and in contrast to that we have started searching for us. For example, what is human in contrast of machine where design and innovation on the other hand, and if we use the word workshop it is also a sort of lasron to that, saying how do I now found a deeper aspect to differentiate with? It was great to differentiate with formal functions but now I have to understand emotions of people. Actually, a lot of people have come towards this word from different angels but the essential idea I feel is, idea of outer order seems to be in a disorder. As the outer gets more in order the inner gets more disordered and in the in the meantime, we start searching for who am I. Moreover, Rishi in that sense it is a thesis paradox. For example, if all the parts of a ship get replaced is it the same ship or is it a different ship. In the same way Empathy is that. So, I trying to ask who are you and who am I in its own word.
M: It’s interesting to use the word dehumanization and the way it shows up in our society, because I always thought that dehumanization in our lives will only show up at extreme closers. For example, loss of a loved one, a break up, loss of a job. But it seems that it is more evident that it has ever been before the way it shows up in our lives. Before we speak about humanization and what it means to be human. I would love to understand by going back to the work Empathy, and what does it truly mean? because it is used interchangeably with compassion, sympathy and sometimes even kindness. So, what does empathy truly mean and how is it different from the rest of the words we use to describe it?
R: That’s a great point of rehashing, because we interchangeably use these words empathy, sympathy, compassion and kindness. So, I thought that there is no great objective answer to this and I have thought that this is a sort of a spectrum that I will try and table here, and this is my own definition not anybody else’s. So, empathy kind of larges the idea of participation. For example, I won’t to be in your shoes, I want to be in your life, and it is the idea of emerging in the world. Actually, that another issue that I would talk about later. But moving into someone’s world and looking at the world through that, so that’s empathy in participation. Sympathy on the other hand has a bit of distance, for example I observed you and I sympathise with the way you are. So, I sympathy with what’s happening to you and I sympathise with you as the way you are in this journey. So, that’s sympathy where I observe and I acknowledge. Compassion on the other hand actually says I don’t know who you are, and I don’t really know who you are because I don’t have the capacity to know you but I still care unconditionally for you. Not knowing you I will still care and it doesn’t matter who you are. By the underline code as you would observe is suffering from all of this. They all acknowledge that the human condition is that of suffering which the Buddhist talk about and in that Empathy says that I want to be you and understand life. Sympathy says I will observe and acknowledge you, where compassion says I don’t know who you, yet I want to be there for you and care for you. But my problem with this word Empathy is that can you ever be in someone’s shoes? Actually, that’s the question I ask myself and I ask others, that can we ever be in anybody else’s shoes and be true to that purpose. Actually, that’s a thought of mine.
M: Absolutely just to build on that thought, through some work on self and through lot of reading through lot of experimentation what has to become clear to me is that most of what I look at the world is a projection of where I am and where I come from and how I am feeling in this moment. So, how do you sort of take a step back from it and learn how do you walk in someone’s shoes and is that even possible, or is it even possible to truly empathize them?
R: That is the paradoxical centre point of Empathy, and that paradoxical sort of thing for of thing for you to Empathize you have to be in someone’s shoes. My question is that before er try and address that briefly. So, to understand certain words we need to understand what is the opposite of that word. So, if I ask you the question which says what is the opposite of Empathy, can you answer that question? Actually, the answer that you gave is not the wrong answer but a better answer to that in my opinion is that the opposite of Empathy is Judgement. Now think about it for a minute about what would I bring to the table the moment I see something, for example any object or any idea my instinctive response is that of judgement. So, from where does this judgement comes from? It comes from my conditioning. For me to truly empathize you have to relinquish judgement, because Judgement and Empathy almost comes from the same space. For example, it’s two sides of a coin like pain and pleasure. So, to be able to absolutely empathize I need to be absolutely free of judgement and is it truly possible for an human being to observe a phenomenon or an individual or an idea without any judgement. Which means almost being thoughtless in that sense. Though it’s one of the super powers, but I wonder can we ever relinquish judgement and hence truly be empathetic.
M: Okay. Dash, that brings me to my next question. As a couch you need to create a safe space for the people with whom you work with and you must really get to know them to work with them, to empower them, to enable and support them. Empathy really seams difficult to practice and to embody so far, but as a couch you do that day in and day out. So, what are the some of the methods or framework that you use to get to know someone?
R: I send my entire time observing human behaviour, at scale and at depth. Actually, that’s what I do for living as a couch and as a pattern of my work. I wouldn’t say that I have mastered it but I have worked on it consciously. Being consciously working on it allows you to sort of improve upon this practice of Empathy. The first principle of that is to not follow judgement and hence not to have any opinion in walking into any situation. So, there are three directions that I have looked for when I try to unlock the story for human or a story for the society. I try to look for where does the human story appear. Actually, it’s a product of three forces and each one of them is a very powerful force in itself. So, let me try to explain it. At the centre point in knowing the story of someone which is an act of Empathy, the first force is that of Biology. We are all body of Bio Chemistry playing out, so if you are a teenager your hormones will be telling you and will behave in a different way. Actually, that’s what is your personality, that is the thing which your hormones are shaping your personality at that point, same with metaphor and same with other life stages, so that was about Bio Chemistry. Next, there is Evolutionary Biology, in the face of danger and human response at a particular kind. For example, care, love, safety and all. Actually, Evolutionary Biology plays a very strong role in how we shape our thinking and behaviour. Because we are still 98.7% skimps in our gene code, so we can’t relinquish the fact that nature is playing though us when there is so little free will that we have. So, to understand someone we need to understand which one is coming from Biology and that’s force One. Force Two is, Psychology. A lot of out who we are a personality gets shaped in our childhood between the age of zero to seven and then a bit between the teenage years. So, to really understand someone you need to understand psychologically what they bring to the table. The same trigger could derive different response which is because of the psychological framework that they carry, which also forms the judgement.
If you’ve grown up with the story of abandonment, you’ll respond to things in a particular way, as opposed to if you’ve grown up with extreme indulgence. Therefore, your stories determine your responses and it’s a powerful force. That’s the second part. The last part is a thing called culture Which balances you with society. You may call yourself a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, American, Vegans – these are culture codes or societal constructs. If you live in Singapore, you’d behave in a specific way and similarly your demeanour and personality would be different based on whether you’re working in Microsoft or in Google. Since you’re at the central, intersecting point of these 3 forces, you’ll always be impacted by them. My role as an analyst is to identify what impacts you. To do that, you need to have an observer’s perspective and assess data. You need to ask yourself the “why” behind the data and be wary of judgement and stay empathetic and to observe without being hypothetic.
M: At a time when there’s so much of a difference between our real selves and the idea of the self which is subject to these external factors, I wonder how one understands oneself first? Essentially, how do I practice empathy with others if I struggle to do that with myself? What if I were to ask you this difficult question?
R: That’s a great question. In airplanes, they tell you to put on your mask first during problems, before helping others. The same applies to empathy. It’s always self-empathy before others. In today’s era, we are our biggest enemy. Look at mental health or self-harm or depression – these all emanate from the crisis of self-empathy. It’s important to care for oneself and step away from one’s own thoughts. The recognition of the fact that a person is a product of their conditioning and inheritance helps in separating oneself from their thoughts to acknowledge and analyse the conditioning without judgement or morality. It’s very important to observe oneself, gather data and realise who one is, minus their conditioning and also, with it. This would help in observing oneself from a distance. That’s probably one of the highest forms of awareness; maybe that’s meditation – to start from your breath and go to your thoughts and then to yourself. That’s the crux of self-empathy.
M: Thank you for sharing that. As always, the time is limited but I’d like to reiterate what I’m taking away. One, empathy is much deeper than the worst can define currently. Second, the opposite of empathy is judgement and the former leads us to relinquish the latter. Third, to truly know someone, we must first know ourselves and for that, we need to observe and empathise with our own selves first. Thank you so much for your time today, Dash – it has been eye-opening. If I were to ask you one last question – what is your hope with the world, with empathy today?
R: There was a word called “love” which was beautiful but now, we’ve managed to murder a beautiful, powerful word by scattering it recklessly. Moreover, we don’t even practice love, even though we understand it. Therefore, my hope with regards to empathy is that we don’t make it another word like love. That we truly understand it and the highest wish is that we practice it in every action and honour.
M: Alright. Thank you so much for your time.
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